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SEARCH FOR THE MASS GRAVES IN UKRAINE map - researches - testimonies - review of the press |
THE
MASSIVE SHOOTINGS OF THE JEWS IN UKRAINE 1941-1944 THE
HOLOCAUST OF BULLETS exhibition at the mémorial de la shoah from june 20 to november 30, 2007 |
Anna D., born in 1927, Bus'k, Lvov area.
Adolf W., born in 1930, Lisinitchi, Lvov area.
Mikhaïl N., born in 1923, Kherson, Kherson area.
Samuel A., born in 1923, Dobyzh, Zhytomyr area.
Adolf
W., born in 1930.
Interviewed in Lisinitchi,
Lvov area, 05/04/05.
Patrick
Desbois : Where have you been when you attended
executions
?
Adolf
W. : I was up there, on
the top of a oak tree. Me and two buddies. First, we saw one truck
coming along, then many other arriving at the same time.
P.D. : Civilians were Ukrainians, Jews, Polishes
?
A.W. :Who
knows who they were.
They had different nationalities. At the beginning, in 1941, there were
only Jews. The trucks were stopping, they were forced to get down,
forced to take their clothes off and driven down there. Guards were
organizing and driving them to the ditch.
P.D. : How
many mass graves were there ?
A.W. : We
counted 59 ones.
P.D.
:
Had they digged in advance ?
A.W. : While
they were digging,
we were guarding the cows in the pasture and we were telling each other
something is going to happen.
P.D. : When
had they digged the ditches ? A long time, a few weeks before
?
A.W. : One
or two days before.
P.D. : Were
they bringing prisoners in order to dig, civilians ?
A.W. : No, militaries.
P.D. : Were
the shooters already there before people come along
?
A.W. : Yes,
they were there.
P.D. : Did
they have shotguns or submachine guns with stand ?
A.W. :
Submachine guns with stand.
P.D. : How
many shooters were they ?
A.W. : Two,
three.
P.D. : After
having killed the people, were they covering them up with soil or not
?
A.W. : They
used to put soil immediately.
P.D. : Who
was in those fire squads ? SS, Gestapo, non-Germans
?
A.W. : SS
and people of the Gestapo. You could recognize them watching their
collars.
P.D. : Were
there some Russians ?
A.W. : The
Russians were wearing their uniform. R.U.A. was written on
their coat.
P.D. : What
does it mean ?
A.W. :
Insurgent russian army.
P.D. : Were
they numerous ?
A.W. : No,
Germans were much more numerous.
P.D.
:
How many mass murders have you seen ?
A.W. : I saw
one only once, that was awful. However, I heard the other shootings,
the shoutings.
P.D. : How
did you know that the Italians are going to be killed later ?
A.W. : Mass
murders had
already taken place when I came here for the first time to watch the
Italians mass murder. They had their uniform, they were very kind to
us, giving us some bread, cookies. The Hungarians used to give a little
something as well.
P.D. : In
your opinion, when did they shoot the Italians ?
A.W. : 1943,
1944. 1944 I guess, in
winter.
P.D. :
Afterwards, some other trucks came along ? Have you seen many trucks
?
A.W. : We
saw some until the
end. Even in 1944, when cremation had started over, they were getting
there to kill people, some Italians, some other nationalities. They
were driven to this monument over there, then to the
ditches.
P.D. : Do
you remember the first time you saw cremations from your farm
?
A.W. : I do,
you could see the smoke going up, it was hard to breath. It was in
spring 1944.
P.D. : Have
you seen those fires ?
A.W. : I
have, you could see the soldiers throwing the corpses into it.
Especially at night, you could see quite clearly.
P.D. : Once
those fires are over, what do you think happened ?
A.W. :
Later, the prisoners
went to the ditches and attacked the guards during the night. They went
out to get water in drums. They tried to pass a message to
the
Partisans in order they plan something.
P.D. : Are
you talking about ukrainian, polish Partisans ?
A.W. : Polish.
Thanks to
them, they attacked Germans from both sides. That was terrible, you
could hear gunfire, the sky was illuminated by rockets light. Many
people got killed ; later, in te morning, we saw the corpses.
P.D.
:
Have Jews been killed just behind your houses ?
A.W. : Yes.
In the very fields.
P.D. : All
around ? It means that Jews managed to come out, that they were
fighting ?
A.W. : Yes
they were.
Many of them.
P.D. : Where
are the bodies of the Jews who had been killed now ?
A.W. :
Population had been conscripted in order to gather the corpses
here.
P.D. : Did
you take part in it ?
A.W. : My
father did, with a
carriage drawn by a horse. German submachine guns were aimed at people,
they had no choice.
P.D. : How
did they conscript population ?
A.W. : They
were taking orders. The Gestapo was coming over and asking "do you have
a horse ?".
P.D. : Was
the Gestapo speaking ukrainian ?
A.W. : Yes,
and polish as well. Mainly polish. They just had two words to say, what
are translators for ?
P.D. : Did
you help your father ?
A.W. : He'd
been conscripted with his horse and went there. We were crying,
frightened of not seeing him again .
P.D. : Did
Germans made the Jews' corpses burn ?
A.W. : They
did, it took several days.
P.D. : Did
the horses get into a panic, because they're afraid of blood and fire
?
A.W. : Yes,
they were very
scared. We had to hit them so that they move forward. It was obvious to
us that after it all, it would be our turn, that we would be the next
ones to go into thoses ditches.